Curse

dargon · Jun 10, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Ok, allow me to post an analogy against adding more attribute points. You say that if your character continues to work at it (gain xp) he should continue to become more powerful. I say, there comes a point where you reach your maximum potential and there's nothing you can do to go beyond that. As proof of this, watch the sprinters in the olympics. The world record for the 100m dash has been steadily decreasing and will continue to decrease because we continue to refine training methods, diet, etc. However, the improvements are becoming less and less with each new record. Eventually we will hit a point where the only thing seperating a new runner from a previous record is environmental conditions, and records will be broken based upon 0.001 seconds rather than 10ths or 100ths. The human body can only achieve so much. 200 attribute points represents what the body can achieve, given the assumption that level 20 and ascendence are supposed to represent the best a man/woman can be.

Galatea · Jun 11, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandman Uk

But isnt that PART of the game to be the strongest and best char on planet guildwars.

Not in the sense this thread is talking about.

The suggestion is to increase attribute points, earned through hours of leveling. Therefore, the more hours spent playing, the stronger and better your character is.. which is like most MMORPGs, but the exact opposite of what GW was meant to be. GW sought to create good players based on skill and strategy, not on hours spent playing. Under this new suggestion, the player who has spent time planning out a good strategy might go up against the player who spent hours and hours racking up attribute points - who is going to win? Most likely, the character who has racked up enough points that their amount of damage done is off the charts.

BrokenSymmetry · Jun 11, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandman Uk

Wheres my reward for putting in the hours collecting XP.

Precisely the whole point of Guild Wars is that you don't get rewards for just "putting in the hours". There are thousands of action/adventure games out there where there is no leveling up or experience points of any kind, and yet these games are enjoyed by many, many people. Why can't you just enjoy playing the game without the need to level up, gain attributes, etc.?

The whole point of Guild Wars is to combine the fun parts of online RPG's and skill-based action games, to create an online experience where someone who plays 1 hour a week can have just as much fun as someone who plays 40 hours a week.

As suggested by other posters, stop "putting in the hours collecting XP" (or farming for items and runes, or whatever), but start experimenting with different combinations of skills, learn what all skills of all classes do and how they can be countered, etc.

Lomax · Jun 11, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

The problems come in as those who are roleplayers only, the game ends at lvl 20

action games maybe good but after playing once they go in the trash.

I will never do PvP I did not buy the game for that at all, it was reviewed on a site that had it under Roleplayers. So i figured cool a nice looking roleplay game that has no monthly cost, as it is now when the next game comes out this game will go in the trash.

I love the game but it just is to short, i finished it in 60hrs.

Skill based game? well i am over 40 years old and will never be able to beat a 14 year old who has a fast mind and quick fingers, sorry but i need time to think about what i am doing.

If you think i am a older player, well i got my DAD to play the game also. He is 63 and will never do PvP eather, he said "why do i need to go back to the play ground and get beat on by kids?" he would rather out think them, if it was a turn based combat maybe. After his 2nd time thru he told he was going back to Sacred hardcore and I may just may go back too.

I hope they fix the game so there is a reason to keep playing, i do not care about unlocking, i do not care about PvP or getting a uber armor if it is just a good looking version of what i already have.

BlaineTog · Jun 11, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomax

The problems come in as those who are roleplayers only, the game ends at lvl 20

action games maybe good but after playing once they go in the trash.

The game doesn't stop being fun once you cease leveling. Not at all. There are still new strategies to try, new skills to get, and new enemies to defeat. And new characters to play.

Quote:

I will never do PvP I did not buy the game for that at all, it was reviewed on a site that had it under Roleplayers. So i figured cool a nice looking roleplay game that has no monthly cost, as it is now when the next game comes out this game will go in the trash.

Roleplaying =! Infinite level progression.

Quote:

I love the game but it just is to short, i finished it in 60hrs.

60 hours is not a short game. 60 hours is quite good, especially considering you didn't do everything, and if you go back and play it with another character, it will be just as interesting (as every class plays quite differently).

TreeDude · Jun 12, 2005, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Beat it in 60hrs? I've logged close to 100hrs and I just got to Augary Rock and made it to lvl20. The game has just begun for me. I still need to ascend, finish the missions, try and take on the Underworld, get the 15k armor, tons of skills I still don't have, and more. I have a crap load to do, and new content is on the way this summer and the expansion in the fall. Plus I hardly even play PvP, not because I don't like it, but I'm too engrossed in the PvE.

Anyone ever play a FPS? All FPS's (except certain few, like Planetside) are based around pure skill. That is what GW is suppossed to be like. An RPG that is skill based. Adding more attribute points would ruin everything the game was created to be. You want to grind, play EQ2 or WoW. You want to compete, then GW will satisfy that. People play Counter Strike for hundreds even thousands of hours. Sure a few new maps here and there are nice, but they keep playing so they can be the very best. That is what Anet wants to use as motivation for people to keep playing, to raise thier skill level as a player, not their charactures attributes. If you don't like it, don't play. But your missing out on what games are really about, and that is having fun.

Loviatar · Jun 12, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDude

and new content is on the way this summer and the expansion in the fall. .

sorry but the official word on the next chapter is first half of 06

TreeDude · Jun 12, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Really? I havn't really checked recently, but I know at one point it was the fall/winter. My mistake. But I think my point still stands. That just gives me more time to finish up this chapter

.

Loviatar · Jun 12, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDude

Really? I havn't really checked recently, but I know at one point it was the fall/winter. My mistake. But I think my point still stands. That just gives me more time to finish up this chapter

.

exactly

i will spend as much time on it as i want then read a book play something else or whatever

Lomax · Jun 12, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

yes i beat it in 60hrs, i did the main missions the main quests.I have had to change very few skills to beat most mobs. Half of the skills are crap, have you looked at the necro skills? i could reduce each profession down to as few as 10 skills and just upgrade the damage they do and it would not change the game at all. there is no cool animation with big spells most of the FX is just diffrent color blobs arch toward the target. There is little FX in the game that makes you say "Way cool" it is just the scenery that is great looking. I still liked the game, it was as good as dungon siege or other linear roleplaying games.

Deathlord · Jun 12, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

People have already stated the obvious problem. MORE ATTRIBUTE POINTS IS NOT GOOD!
Guild wars is about teamwork and builds, if you could have one person have 12 in each category then who the hell cares about teamwork? People who state this idea are mainly concerned about wanting to spend their hours just to grind levels and attribute points. I get ticked off alot on these posts which is why i may seem agressive. It's pointless to argue, they might add more levels in new expansions, but if they do it now they'll lose a majority of the players who actually think teaming up with friends is funner than trying to kill people all alone.

Schorny · Jun 13, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomax

Half of the skills are crap

No, you forgot that there are different strategies that need different skills. Maybe a lousy 5 Energy skill would fit better than a very good 10 Energy skill, simple because your build can't afford the 5 more energy?

There are skills I find useless for my build. But my build is just my build and not everyone's.

Sorry to say, but you simple haven't understand GW yet.

And if you haven't done most quests (just the main ones) than you have seen maybe 60% of what GW has to offer. And 60 hours for rushing thorugh a game is quite long. Most games need 30-60 hours for finish everything.

And look at it this way: you paid 50 Euro (or whatever currency you use) and got 60 hours of fun (hopefully) that is a bit more than an average game offers. It's not best ratio but quite a good one.

Rieselle · Jun 13, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

No, you forgot that there are different strategies that need different skills. Maybe a lousy 5 Energy skill would fit better than a very good 10 Energy skill, simple because your build can't afford the 5 more energy?

There are skills I find useless for my build. But my build is just my build and not everyone's.

Sorry to say, but you simple haven't understand GW yet.

And if you haven't done most quests (just the main ones) than you have seen maybe 60% of what GW has to offer. And 60 hours for rushing thorugh a game is quite long. Most games need 30-60 hours for finish everything.

And look at it this way: you paid 50 Euro (or whatever currency you use) and got 60 hours of fun (hopefully) that is a bit more than an average game offers. It's not best ratio but quite a good one.

I agree. For most single player RPGs 50-60 hours is the norm for an average playthrough. It sounds like this person (the OP) was expecting an "online" (ie. infinite) game, at an one-off game price. That's not even considering that most online games don't offer infinite gameplay anyway. (maybe MUDs, since players can participate in writing new areas etc.).

Usually the strategy for "extra" game time in single player RPGs is to have ultra-tough secret areas, replayability by choosing different types of characters, harder game modes, "collectibles" that you go through to unlock various things, etc. GW has all of that except the harder game modes, and you missed all of that by just playing through all the main missions once.

You wouldn't have gotten your money's worth with any other RPG with that kind of attitude.

However - valid points exist:
1. There's no "meta-game" reward for PvE skill. Think of classic arcade shoot-em ups and beat-em ups. You'd play through them again and again, to try and beat the game with the highest score possible, or to get to more and more difficult stages (in older games like Galaga that didn't have an end

2. Think of arcade fighting games or action games like Devil May Cry - you'd play the game again and again for the love of your own skill, to do harder and more spectacular combos, to try to create different strategies etc. This is only partially present in GW, but I believe it will be addressed with: More skills. Better skill graphics. The action in this game is nicer looking than most online RPGs (WoW ... 1 swing every 1.5 seconds or so.... you character stands there... whack.....whack....whack.....) but it still has a ways to go before it gives as much visual reward to fighting as a single player action game. (Go and watch some videos of Devil May Cry 3 or Star Ocean: Till the End of Time).

And it's not about processing power - it's about artistry. (and art content)
What about being able to knock monsters away as well as knock down? Staggers? Juggles? Cooperative special attacks? Different death animations for different types of finishing damage? (Burning, blowing up, lightning, Final Thrust, Axe chops, Hammer hits etc.)

I hope ANet doesn't follow WoW's trend of getting all their artists and designers to merely make new items and new areas... I mean, sightseeing is all good and all, but I want to see more ways to do carnage! For a game as combat-heavy as GW, adding some more death effects, more visuals for combinations etc, provides lasting enjoyment throughout the game, for everyone. (Well, everyone who likes action).

spikydude · Jun 13, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Going back to what was originally asked: I dont think increasing attribute points as described is a good idea at all. Almost everyone here agrees that this game is about skills not about hours of playing so you can be super powerful.

Lomax · Jun 13, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

well i played thu Sacred in under 40 hrs. but you can go to silver and up, also I play sacred in Hard Core where if you die that is it. there is something that can keep you playing even if you have finished the story. Doing diffrent builds i understand, but that is mosty A PvP thing. I just look for the best build that can get me to the end, i would like to push that build higher but with 20 cap can not. The second build I enjoy only half as much, because i already know about all the monsters and the tarrain. and the last if i play it would be a messed up build just to make it as hard as i can.

stumpy · Jun 14, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Sorry I agree that it is a horrible idea. Currently the gameis balanced and why the heck would we need more attribute points? I mean if your really unsatisfied with max att. + the 2 extra 15 point quest? ... then there is a whole great line up of games for you (DAoC, WoW, EQ, FFXI) go power level to 85 or 100 ... guildwars isnt about that ... now if your idea was instead for attribute refund points, then I might agree with you as I like swapping my points around ... alot. And at the current rate of 250xp = 1 refund point. I still use all mine. But adding more attribute points ... I think its a terrible idea ... imo.

Sandman Uk · Jun 14, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boubou

Imagine a r/w.. killing you with bow at long range.. and when you are near him, switch to sword/axe/hammer to finish you off. I know it's possible right now, but that means you have less att. points elsewhere..

Again the age old problem Is PVP against PVE. The statement above is true for PVP play but what about us PVE players who like the adventuring over the tournament play. We suffer and are held back because it will give PVP players an upper hand in thier tourneys. I want to kill all monsters and it would be good to swap out different weapons for different type monsters. I have met as much as 10 different types in talus shute when grinding up from Rankor to Beacons.

Nearly all the arguments regarding this game are about PVP and PVE and I am beginning to think they dont mix. I am a PVE person and enjoy that part. Seems the quote from Mygo

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygo

You're supposed to play PvP strategically. Carefully picking skills you think would best suit your playstyle or suit a counter against a certain playstyle that is commonly used. You're not supposed to level 100 times more so that you can just beat players outright. Levelling does have its uses in the game, and that's to unlock all possible skills, if you play through it you'll find you can't unlock 40 of the skills for the two classes you picked because you've run out of skill points. Two ways around this, either grind those levels and get those skills OR make another chr with the same classes and purposely avoid buying all skills, saving them for the skills you didn't unlock.

The drive for a player to continue playing would be in the competitive sport of PvP

Is Misunderstanding what im asking and assuming I need atts for PVP